[music] From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all a good evening, or a good morning, as the case may be across this great land of ours. Actually, commercially, from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands, out west, eastward, to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, Tally-ho there in the Virgin Islands, actually all of them, south into South America, north all the way to the Poland, worldwide on the internet, thanks to broadcast.com and Intel, and of course our G2 streaming video, which I trust is back up and running tonight. If you want to see us actually do the show, as well as hear the program, you just go to my website, www.artbell.com, download the G2 player, come back up, and you will get what I call "almost television," the most remarkable thing you've ever seen on the net. I would like to welcome WNTK New London, New Hampshire, 10 big kilowatts on 1020. I'm sure they're heard all over the place. We'll be, as a matter of fact, later in the morning doing an interview tomorrow morning on that radio station, WNTK New London, New Hampshire. Also, we'd like to welcome KOTA, Rapid City, South Dakota, 5 kilowatts on 1380, a good regional signal, and WSKY FM in Gainesville, Florida. Now, they are no less than 100,000 radiated watts on 97.3. They call themselves "The Sky." So, welcome to "The Sky." Welcome to all of you, as the network continues to grow at an incredible, incredible pace. Now, I will have a comment on Kosovo next hour before Terence McKenna joins us. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033. West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255. First-time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222. And you may call Art on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295. To reach Art from outside the U.S., first dial your access number to the USA, then 800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM, from the Kingdom of Nye, with Art Bell. Want to take a ride, huh? Well, you're going to tonight, because around the corner is Terence McKenna. Do you know who Terence McKenna is? If not, you will shortly. He is a brilliant, fast mind with a lot to say. And it shouldn't be that way, because his mind should be fried rice, actually. But it's not. We'll talk about that, too. Well, listen, good morning, everybody. I've got a couple of things I've got to get on. Actually, several. Our affiliate base continues to grow, and once again, I would like to welcome WNTK. New London, New Hampshire, 10 kilowatts. On 10-20, big time, huh? KOTA, Rapid City, South Dakota, 5,000 watts, 1380. WSKY, Sky, FM, Gainesville, Florida, 100,000 watts on 97.3. As we race, in fact, actually edge ever so close to the 450 affiliate mark. We're operating under unusual conditions right now. My entire valley is out of power. I don't know if somebody's practicing for Y2K or what's going on, but the Pahrump police report to me that the power is out over my entire valley. And that's now a lot of people here in the Pahrump Valley. I have no idea how much more widespread power outage is. I do still see a glow over the hill, but that could be generators operating Las Vegas. I have no way of knowing. It's absolutely astounding. So everything is dark. The entire valley here is particularly dark. We, however, are lit up thanks to a generator and the nearly endless supply of propane. By the way, my guest who's coming up is also on a generator to be coming to us. So you're really into generator city tonight. All right, a lot of you will not--just before we get to Terrence-- a lot of you will not have been privy to this since it went on the Internet on my website. We, as an April Fool's joke, which really was not a joke, what I did, I did for a very serious reason. But I figured April 1st was a good day to do it. We put up a page ostensibly berating NATO, a Yugoslav page, as if the Yugoslav hackers had hacked our site. Well, they didn't. We hacked our own site. That's right. We hacked our own site. Now, I did it for a very serious reason, actually. And I'm going to read to you--you may recall, prior to my going on vacation-- this is, of course, my first day back-- I told you that I bet within hours of my going on vacation, we would begin bombing in Yugoslavia, and of course we are doing that. We did that. I don't think it was six hours. Six hours after I went on vacation, the bombing began. So I'm afraid I was right about that. And I'm afraid I'm right about what I'm going to read you now. And a lot of you are going to disagree with it, so be it. I want to read it to you. This is what we put on our website, my answer. I wrote, "The hack"--computer hack, meaning computer hack-- "The hack seen on this site was an April 1st prank by myself and Keith Rowland. However, it was also"--and I would add, more importantly, to make a point-- "though I do not agree in any way whatsoever with what the Serbs are reported to be doing, it's my view that it's none of our damn business." And I mean that. "A man might make a case for intervention when one nation invades another." Witness the Gulf War, of course. "But as a libertarian, even that causes me some pause. To bomb until the Serbs agree to change their internal policy is absolute folly. Will we bomb for a few more days, weeks, months? Will we declare victory if they agree to talk? Will that end differences that have been festering longer than we've been a nation? Is this the new world order? If so, I want no part of it. If we must act beyond our borders, then let us help those displaced by the madness. The real flow of refugees, you might note, did not begin until our"--in quotes--"goodwill bombing" began. What's going to be our next act? To send American troops on to the ground there? Would you see your son, your daughter, die to change attitudes in Serbia? If war is to begin again, once again in Europe, that is indeed sad. But we should not be the ones to light the fuse. If this is the new world order, then where were we, pray tell, when half a million Africans were hacked to death? Where were we, pray tell, when millions were slaughtered in Cambodia? The world is not a nice place, ladies and gentlemen, and our bombs will not make it so. And so I did what I did to drive exactly that point home. I think what we're doing is absolute insanity. Absolute insanity. By the way, coming up in a moment--by the way, quite a few of the press bit on our little April Fool's item. I won't name them. In the mainstream press bit. But that was exactly the idea. That's the way you drive a point home, and I really wanted to drive this point home. If we continue on our present course, then we've lost all direction as a sovereign nation. How can we expect to remain ourselves sovereign if we do not respect the sovereignty of others? Well, that's my soapbox on what's going on with the bombing. Anybody out there know what the exit strategy is? Do we simply declare victory? I could go on and on, and I probably will because this one really sticks in my craw. Terrence McKenna coming right up. I'm over 40 and I swim three times a week. It keeps me active and in shape. That's why it's important. I keep my shoulders and all my joints healthy. Now, help support the health of your joints with Pain Free brand from Schiff. Pain Free is a natural supplement with glucosamine and chondroitin to help maintain healthy cartilage and lubricate joints. I take Pain Free because I love to swim. It makes me feel great and look great. Move free with Pain Free brand Caplex from Schiff. Or try Joint Free Plus, Schiff's joint support drink mix, at pharmacies, Costco, and GNC. All right. Well, actually, let's do it right now. All the way across so much water we go to connect now with Terrence McKenna, who's safely tucked away. I think the side of a volcano or something, isn't it, Terrence? That's right, Art. How are you this evening? I'm fine. God, it's great to hear your voice again. Yes, I think it's been about a year. It's been about a year. That's right. I'm curious. Don't hold back. I'm sure that you have been watching or at least listening to or vaguely aware of what we're doing in Europe right now. I thought I'd probably start out by asking you your comments. Well, I'm glad I listened in on your reading of your statement, so I know where you're coming from. Well, as you said, it's a complete mess. For the third time in the 20th century, the Balkans appear to be the place where Europe could potentially push itself into some kind of war nobody could foresee the end of. I read analysis of Milosevic and his regime five years ago that predicted this would be the end game. Then Kosovo was where push would come to shove, and now here we are. There's only a few months left in the 20th century, but time for one more atrocity apparently. Apparently. Now, I understand by the way, Terrence, there are seven Russian warships on the way to the area, which they say observe, but I don't know. You get seven Russian warships and of course, the Russians are not at all happy with us. They've been rattling all kinds of sabers about this. It really still happens. The old days of duck and cover, you remember that, Terrence? No, I think Vietnam gave the domino theory a bad name, but I think in the Balkans, the domino theory may well have something to say. Watch Macedonia, watch Albania. As the destabilization spreads, Greece and Turkey could be pulled in. The Russians are beginning to move toward it, and don't think anyone is in control of all this, or as you say, what's the exit strategy? It's easy going in. Nobody knows how you get out of this kind of thing. We're throwing, of course, these cruise missiles, firing these cruise missiles, beginning to run out of them incidentally, but we are firing what we have. When they run out, that means more airplanes, and then eventually when that strategy fails, then you're faced with the choice of either retreating and it's another Vietnam, or putting in ground troops and starting down the same horrible road of no return. Remember, ground troops couldn't make a difference in Vietnam either. Yes, I think aerial bombing, how many times in the 20th century are we going to learn that it's insufficient and it's a very weak-kneed approach if you're talking about all-out war with fascists. And then, Terrence, also, even if we did bomb them, which I suppose is conceivable to the point where they said, "Okay, we'll talk about peace," and then we move peacekeepers, we're peacemakers now, not peacekeepers, but we finally get peacekeepers in there, there's no exit strategy at all. Look at Bosnia, they said we'd be there for a year and a half, and then on and on and on, we'd never get out, and when we do finally leave, they will resume the same thing they were doing. Yes, well NATO seems to have become the kind of military arm of the world corporate state that many people feared. Yes, sir. What the Serbs are doing, there's no way to countenance, but I'm not so sure I'm so happy with this new world of ours. Well, as you say, you can't countenance what is happening in Kosovo. On the other hand, what happened in Rwanda, what happened in Cambodia, these things didn't raise anybody's radar. No, rarely does something politically grab me these days. I've been really bored to death with politics, especially the whole damn Monica thing. Thank God that seems to be over. Well, you remember you and I talked when we were about six weeks into it last year, and I said that I didn't think this was going to bring happiness to the right wing. Well, it didn't. As a matter of fact, it kind of tore the right wing all to pieces, and I don't know what's going to happen. It's going to be a very interesting election coming up. What do you think will happen? Oh, I assume that if the Democrats can't win this one after what the country has been through, then they're probably finished, but I think it'll be an easy win for Gore. I think the Republicans are flirting at the end of the 20th century with the kind of faith that we're looking at at the end of the 18th century. They need a program and an agenda. Running against the president has gone about as far as it can go. That's right, and I think a lot of people are just running away from that one now. Well, how's it going there? Look, there's a whole new audience. I keep forgetting. We have 100 affiliates since the last time I talked to you, so maybe we ought to take a second, and you should tell everybody who Terrence McKenna is. Who Terrence McKenna is? That's right. If you were to have to answer that, which you do now, what would you say? Well, I guess my bio says writer and explorer. Explorer means explorer of hallucinogenic plants, strange usages of exotic plants by exotic people, and then coming back and talking about these things, advocating them. Alteration of consciousness leads to all the big philosophical issues. What is culture? What is history? Where are we going, and how are we going to get there, and what's going to be so great about it when we get there? So I'm an itinerant philosopher at the end of the 20th century. Well, the average Joe out there, maybe driving a truck across Indiana somewhere, probably is saying to himself right now, "Well, why should I listen to anything emanating from this drug-scorched brain?" But of course, that's the only problem with you, Terrence, is your brain doesn't appear to be drug-scorched, and it should be. If what the establishment tells us about drugs is even partly true, you should be a basket case. Well, maybe I am. No, you're not. No, you're not. But I think the guy driving his semi across Indiana, he may be a little scorched himself this time of night. Well, he's scorched in a different way trying to keep his eyes open, you know, get the load delivered. That's right. It's certainly true. You know, the stereo of the cannabis enthusiast can't think straight, can't remember where they put the keys. I've never felt that way about these things. I think cultures choose the drugs they want to stigmatize, and then they glorify others. It differs from culture to culture. The social consequences differ according to the choices made, but alteration of consciousness by human beings is as old as human beings themselves. That's quite true. Do you think that it would be fair to suggest, it would be certainly something that probably get us in a lot of trouble, but that there are some hallucinogenic drugs that do in fact give people legitimate, underline that word, insights that they would otherwise perhaps not realize? Oh, absolutely. I mean, you give me a lead in to talk about one of the things I'm doing at the moment, which is after a conference in Mexico on hallucinogenic botany this year, a couple of friends of mine and I decided to organize a conference on the theme you just stated, a conference on the creative process and hallucinogenic substances, because there's a huge amount of the art, design, and fashion world that has for years been using these things to fuel the engines of creativity, but it's all been in the closet and very ingrained in the heart. Listen, we're at the bottom of the arm. We'll pick up on this when we come back. Terrence McKenna in Hawaii is my guest. This is Coast to Coast. [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from outside the U.S. First, dial your access number to the USA. Then, 800-893-0903. If you're a first time caller, call Art at 702-727-1223. From east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033. West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, call Art at 1-800-618-8255. Or call Art on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295. This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye. Terrence McKenna is probably unlike anybody you're ever going to. Have the pleasure of listening to and meeting. Terrence McKenna really has picked up the gauntlet from Timothy Leary. And you may reject what he has to say, but at the very least, if you claim to have an open mind, you really, really must consider it. All right, well, the old myth, you know, is that... Try this. If you think your creativity is heightened when you're on some sort of hallucinogenic drug, then make notes, write a story, paint a painting, conduct some music, play some music, sing, and see if when you're down, it was really as good as when you were up. And I think that's kind of what we're talking about here, in a way, isn't it, Terrence? Yeah, well, most of us probably would come in on the low end of that scale, although there are some spectacular counter examples. Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote "Kublikon" stoned on opium. The insight to the structure of the benzene molecule came to someone after a cognac-inspired dream. The character of creative breakthrough is like a revelation, the "aha" experience. And sometimes it's a bump on the head, and sometimes it's a hallucinogenic experience, but it always has the character of sort of arising in a completed form, you know what I mean? Yes. Why are there so many striking counter examples? Why? That's a question you never hear dealt with in the public. In fact, you never hear about it at all. They suppress that information. But why sometimes is a drug a key to creativity that you would not have otherwise? Why? Well, I think it's because of the larger effect of these drugs, which is that they dissolve boundaries. And many of the boundaries which enclose us are boundaries of habit, convention, and under the influence of the drug, we see beyond those boundaries. The job of artists has always been to sort of be an antenna into the future, and bohemians have always been associated with the drug taking to some degree. So I think it's a very understandable process. It's simply that we're now beginning to understand it, and we have to, because the number of substances available and being discovered all the time is beyond the power of the courts and the scientific establishment to really manage. Well, I don't know. If you go to a doctor, you will notice these days, Terrence, I don't know whether you ever go to doctors, but when you do, a doctor will say, "You know what? I know you're in a terrible amount of pain, and I really wish that I could prescribe more to keep you out of pain," because that's the way a doctor feels. You know, they're trying to ease your suffering, but the doctor will tell you, "Frankly, the DEA is looking right behind my shoulder, and a number of my colleagues have lost their licenses, and so frankly I can't really give you what you need." That's prescribed. Well, this is a part of the drug problem. The hysteria on drugs has made so many different people and institutions crazy in so many different ways. I really, on the general larger question of hard drugs, I'm quite despairing because so many people and institutions make money off the present mess. You know, the prison builders, the rehab people, the criminal syndicates, the bought-off cops, the paid-off judges, everybody is making money on this racket that they pretend to wring their hands over. That's absolutely correct, and heaven knows what the police would do if they couldn't chase narcotics people. They would literally have about 10% or 20% at most of their job left, and I think our prisons would be more or less about 60% or 70% empty as compared to their present content. The courts would unclog, and lawyers would have to find honest work. So, in other words, it's never going to happen. You got it, Art. Well, what are you doing in terms of researching this interesting, creative truth? How are you going to do that? Well, I don't know if I've ever talked to you about this, but I'm interested, of course, in what these substances do to me and to other individuals, but then there's a whole other area, which is what is the impact of substances and drugs being on large populations over long periods of time? I'm willing to argue that the evolution of human language and complex cultural forms themselves were caused by disruptions in the ordinary mental functioning of perfectly happy primates, about 150,000 years ago. In other words, the evolution of complex human culture based on language is actually an effect of brain perturbations and unusual states of consciousness that were eventually assimilated and became part of the behavioral toolkit of early human beings. So, you're saying it's actually a part of and a continuing part of evolution itself. That's right, and the important thing for modern people is a continuing part of. So, when you talk about drugs, you know, today we're focusing on the drug of the day, whatever it is, heroin or methadrine, but in fact, over the past thousand years, it's been drugs that have built the empires that created Western civilization. Sugar, tobacco, alcohol, opium, tea, chocolate, these are the drugs that shaped civilization. Coffee, another big one. And of course, we don't think of these as drugs. We call them foods or whatever we call them because a drug is a bad thing, a food is a good thing, but eventually, I think people are going to wise up to this racket and they need to because we need to educate our children about this complex area of human behavior. There are dangerous drugs. There are drugs that used carefully can be a tremendous enhancement of life, but you have to know what you're doing. It's not something you just blunder into and all generalizations will have exceptions. And they do indeed. Recently, as you well know, we have a drug czar and recently, our czar actually came out and made a couple of really remarkable statements. He said that he thought the debate over medical marijuana was now a legitimate one and he even went further and he said, "It may well be that the use of marijuana recreationally may be a valid debate for our society to have." I almost fell on the floor when I heard him say that. Well, it would be a wonderful thing for Clinton to do for Gore and the country to make some headway in the end of this administration on this issue so that it doesn't all have to be left to the first term of a new Democrat. I mean, how long are we going to dog this matter? It really should be part of the agenda of the new century to make drug suppression a 20th century phenomenon along with racism, fascism, aerial bombing of civilians and so forth and so on. As I said, it's a racket. The insurance companies know that people who smoke cannabis are not at greater health risk. Well, you know, that's a good point because they always ask whether you smoke. They don't ask whether you smoke pot. They ask whether you smoke cigarettes and they're really concerned about that. In fact, a lot of cases... Well, they've got the numbers on that. Yeah, in fact, a lot of cases, you can't even get insured if you are a smoker. But the fact is cannabis is such an effective stress reducer that whatever effect the tar in it is having on you, it's more than offset by your low blood pressure, excellent digestion, good sleep and so forth and so on. Do you think that there will be any progress soon based on the recent statements made? Is there going to be some sort of... Even my state, Nevada. Now, Nevada, Terrence, does not look kindly on even marijuana. It is a felony in Nevada. And recently, we had a statewide initiative here in which the people of Nevada said yes to, you know... Call toll-free 1-800-618-8255. Oh my. Well, it looks like we just went through another brief blackout, ladies and gentlemen. So we're going to have to get Terrence back on the line. You may have heard a little sort of a noise in the background and that was indeed the blackout. So we're going to have to try to get Terrence back on again and continue to revise and look at our power situation here. We are in a power outage. So I will continue to disable things that we don't need and we will continue to run on jet. Well, I'll tell you, welcome, huh? April 1st, coming in like a storm, to be sure. So Terrence, if you're out there listening, my friend, we're going to have to take a bit more of a break here so that I can get you back on the line. Sorry about that, buddy. It's just one of those things. So in a moment, once again, Terrence McKenna. In 1859, the famous Comstock silver load was discovered here in the mountains of Nevada. In order to avoid chipping that silver a great distance to be minted into coins, our government opened the Carson City Mint near Virginia City in 1869. After only 24 years of operating, with the Comstock now played out, that mint was closed and today is a museum. In 1964, after nearly 100 years of obscurity, the Treasury Department discovered original bags of the famous Carson City silver dollars which had never been issued to the public. My friends at David Hall's North American Trading have been able to purchase a limited number of these beautiful uncirculated coins which offer a historical reminder of the time when pioneers were still discovering the Old West. At just one call, first time callers call area 702-727-1222. [silence] Well, it just looks as though we're going to have this and that going on for a while. I think we're almost restored, almost restored. So everybody hang in there, we'll do one more thing and bring back Terrence McKenna. I'm sure we will. 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That would be you, right? Tomorrow morning call award-winning MindSpring, 1888MSpring. And remember, the $25 start-up fee will be waived and the first 30 days of service is free. All you have to do is mention Art Bell sent you. 1888MSpring. Boy, I wonder if we're getting kind of a preview of Y2K or something. This has really been a trip. Terrence, welcome back. Yes, I was thinking, you know, isn't April 1st one of those rollover dates for Y2K? Yes, it is. And I'm not... The Federal Republic of Germany and California and New York State all go to their long-term physical projections. That's true. Japan as well, I think. By the way, since you mentioned it, or I mentioned it, what do you think about Y2K? You know, there's kind of a range from, hey, nothing's going to happen, to, hey, everything's going to come to a screeching halt. Where are you in that scale? I guess I'm sort of a mugwomp on this one, with my mug on one side of the fence and my womp on the other. It seems to me it'll probably be locally, there will be local breakdowns, but the whole system, I imagine, will flow around it. I mean, that's my expectation. It's one of those problems where people are highly motivated to solve it. So if they can't solve this, I don't know. What are they going to do in Kosovo? Oh, don't get me started on that. You're absolutely right. I, too, think that a lot of the warnings that have gone out and a lot of the scare stuff really has motivated a lot of people to action. But still, there may be lurking out there, Terrence, hundreds of thousands of embedded chips in power companies around the country. And it's going to be sort of interesting to see what happens. And if we were to lose power on a major portion of the grid, for even some fairly serious amount of time, how long civilization as we know it would hang together? You ever wonder about that? Well, I wonder about it from the confines of a tropical island with mild winters. You'll have our sympathy, Art. Maybe you should think of a Hawaiian vacation at the end of the year. Oh, I've been thinking about it for some time now, Terrence, and I fully intend to come and see you. What's it like where you are? Well, what's it like? It's at about 2,000 feet in a rain forest of hardwood trees and tree ferns, 80 inches of rainfall, temperature never below 55, never above 95. In other words, paradise. It's a word they use around here. I think the Visitor Bureau has a lock on it, but yeah. You are on the side of a volcano. The world's largest active volcano, which is Mauna Loa, which is a mighty, mighty mountain. It actually is the world's highest mountain because it rises 13,000 feet from the sea floor or about 17,000 feet from the sea floor to sea level and then 12,000 feet more. All right. We're at the top of the hour, and so we'll make some power adjustments here and be right back. This one's for you, Terrence. Stay right where you are, okay? Okay. [music] Indeed, this one's for you. [music] ♪ We don't care if we die ♪ ♪ Come with us in time ♪ ♪ This is the journey to the center of our mind ♪ ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ ♪ Take a ride to the last good side of your mind ♪ ♪ Beyond the seas of God ♪ ♪ Beyond the realm of what ♪ ♪ Across the streams of hopes and dreams ♪ ♪ Where things are really hard ♪ ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ ♪ Take a ride to the last good side of your mind ♪ ♪ But please realize ♪ ♪ You'll probably be surprised ♪ ♪ For it's a land unknown to man ♪ ♪ Where vice is deed and crime ♪ ♪ So if you can't please understand ♪ ♪ You might not come back ♪ [music] ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Ooh ♪ [music] ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Ooh ♪ ♪ Ooh ♪ [music] ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ ♪ Take a ride to the last good side of your mind ♪ ♪ But please realize ♪ ♪ You'll probably be surprised ♪ ♪ For it's a land unknown to man ♪ ♪ Where vice is deed and crime ♪ ♪ So if you can't please understand ♪ ♪ You might not come back ♪ ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ ♪ Come along if you dare ♪ [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] From the kingdom of Nye, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell. From east of the Rockies, call Art at 1-800-825-5033. West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, at 1-800-618-8255. First-time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222. And you may fax Art at area code 702-727-8499. Please limit your faxes to one or two pages. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell. Now again, here's Art. Oh my, how we depend on our civilization. We've been going through gigantic power spikes and drops here. It's been amazing. We're just now coming back on to commercial power. My guest is Terrence McKenna. He's a guy who'd know what it's like to be without commercial power. Because I don't think he has any. For a long time, the only way he could get out by phone was some sort of radio phone, internet phone. That's probably what I'm talking to him on right now. He's a very, very interesting guy. Terrence is fascinating. I've got a lot of questions for him. He'll be back in a moment. Coast to Coast AM, back on commercial power and trying to get the computers back up. Oh my, how we depend on technology. Once again, Terrence McKenna. Terrence, you know, I talked--in fact, I'm going to be talking to one next week, another brilliant theoretical physicist. I talk frequently with Dr. Michio Kaku. It is his view that the odds of our making it through to the other side of the discovery and dealing with Element 92, that our odds are very, very teeny-weeny indeed. In other words, when any civilization, and there must be many out there, discover Element 92 inevitably, almost inevitably, they end up destroying themselves. Any thoughts on that? You think we'll make it through? Well, I think it's remarkable that we've had atomic weapons for over 50 years now and they were only used very shortly, within weeks after their perfection. And after that, somehow in all the wars, revolutions, and posturing that's gone on, we've never resorted to the nuclear option. So I would argue that maybe the discovery of the transuranium elements and their properties had a marvelously sobering effect on carnivorous monkeys like ourselves. But I can usually find a silver lining, aren't I? Good. Then you may want to find one. In fact, seven Russian warships are now headed to meet up with and/or, in their words, observe what we are doing with regard to the bombing of the Serbs. Well, you just keep going back to that. I think that's a case of trying to make a purse out of a cow's ear or a cow's ear. That's exactly right. Anyway, I hope that we make it through. I have great doubts. Well, there are many other challenges. I'm sure you've probably discussed on your program the Terminator gene. Oh, yes. Isn't that wonderful? That's a good one. There's the Grey Goose scenario of a nanotechnological breakout. You've got earth changes. I guess we've probably talked about how Alfred North Whitehead said the business of the future is to be dangerous. Well, we're doing good business. Boy, it's a dangerous world out there right now. It's a really dangerous world. Listen, here's somebody who asks, "Would you please ask, Terrence, if the drug DMT, which occurs naturally in our bodies, is released at death, and if it is, could this possibly account for some of the near-death experiences that people report?" Well, yes. I think that's a very reasonable suggestion. I first heard that notion put forth from Rupert Sheldrake, and I think he called it a necrophagin, a drug which simulates the symptoms of near-death. It certainly is. The near-death experience is a dramatic analog to the DMT experience, but I also think we produce DMT in deep dream states. I would lay money on that. It's known that it's produced in cerebrospinal fluid at the same time that there's high REM activity in the brain, which usually indicates deep dreaming. If DMT is indeed the coach that drives NDEs, how does that tell us, if anything, about what does or does not lie beyond this short mortal life? Well, I've thought a lot about that. If we take the evidence seriously, the DMT state seems to indicate some kind of hyperdimensional matrix that is actually inhabited by some kind of language using form of energy that can at least relate to the presence of human beings. I've said maybe these were dead souls, an ecology of souls. This is certainly what shamans would claim. If that's true and can be verified by something as simple as a psychoactive drug experience that lasts 15 minutes, then we really, scientifically, at the end of the 20th century, have been looking in all the wrong places. I think we have been looking in all the wrong places and that the real frontier of science is the human mind and its potential. We're not going to unlock that until we get over all this queasiness and hand-wringing on the issue of drugs and drug research and drug use and so forth and so on. Well, I guess you could either view the use of some of these hallucinogenics as a peek at the other side, a peek at what lies beyond the physical and truly lies beyond the physical. In other words, there are a lot of things that I believe our brains can do after all. I think it's Princeton and other prestigious universities. They're proving that the mind can affect random number generators, that we can do that. The proof is quite substantial, actually, but that's something that a conscious mind does. It's not something that a dead mind does. There are many other things that our living minds can do. For example, they can enable us to travel outside our bodies. I did it once. I know now it's true. You can, in effect, be outside your body, but I have not decided yet, Terrence, whether that experience represents something that I will find after my mortal existence. Do the wild thing at 702-727-1295. Human brain, and we just lost it again. We really are just having quite a night of it here, folks. Poor Terrence. After all that buildup, I'm going to have to do something and get him back on the line. There are obvious severe power difficulties going on here right now, folks, so all I can say is bear with us and Terrence will be right back. Are you overweight? Are you going to lose a guaranteed average 8 to 10 pounds in the next month? Well, we know fiber sweeps fat out of your digestive tract like a broom as a natural course of events, but a new fiber, chitosan, natural because it is derived from shellfish, not only sweeps out fat, but listen to me, 10 times as much fat as any other fiber. So it allows this amazing guarantee. Here it is. Eat as you normally do, not more, just as you normally do, no great sacrifice. Order a 90-day supply of chitosan. With it, you get an antioxidant moisturizing cream free of charge. Call 1-800-557-4627. Now the guarantee. If you don't lose 8 to 10 pounds, in the next month you get all your money back and you keep the cream. It's not available in stores, but you can get it by calling 1-800-557-4627. That's Great American Products at 1-800-557-4627. You've got nothing to lose but the fat. That's right. All right. Well, we're really getting a Y2K example out here in the Prump Valley right now. It's really a serious situation tonight with the power. I have no idea what's going on, but whatever it is, it's not good because it's covering a great deal of geography. So bear with us, everybody. Once again, here's Terrence. See, every time that happens, our phone connection separates. And there's Terrence out in the middle of nowhere with a generator staying right on line as I drop off. Anyway, Terrence, look, I did this big buildup and then the phone went away. I was, I guess, approaching what I know about the conscious mind. I know to be true and what I wonder about. And of course, what I wonder about is whether there really is some sort of continuation. What's your view? Terrence? Yeah, I know. Oh, I was just saying that was a long pause. I'm formulating my thoughts here. No, I understand. On a night like this, long pauses probably mean the power is going out. Well, I agree that you can't be sure that DMT is showing you the great beyond. It may be showing you the dying brain. It may be taking you to the very edge of death, but that is not death itself. It may be showing you the great within. That's what it may be showing you. Yes, and it doesn't settle the metaphysical questions, except it certainly is strong evidence that everything we've been told about entities, about the capacity of the human mind, that things are a good deal more complicated than that. To me, it's the great exception to all rules. What it itself says, other than that all rules have exceptions, I'm not sure. Terrence, if the power were to go out and stay out, I'll pick Honolulu. That's a big city, close to you. If the power went out and stayed out for a month in Honolulu, what do you think would happen socially? In any city, I think push would come to shove in a hurry because water pumps would not work, and so the city water supply would be only what was in the pipes, and you can take the scenario from there. I live on an island hundreds of miles from Honolulu, and thankfully so. I'm not a survivalist, at least not consciously, but I've certainly built a system that is redundant, off-grid, wireless, and capable of maintaining itself without any help from anybody else. I'm concerned about people in cities, even if Y2K does not bring the end of the world in very dense population centers like Tokyo and Manhattan, where simply the number of embedded chips is exponentially high, the possibility of some kind of chain reaction failure is consequently high as well. I think people should give consideration to moving out of those kinds of areas, even if just temporarily. That's quite a bit of advice. Now understand that as you dispense that advice, you're being heard right now in every major city in America, every single major city, New York City, Atlanta, I won't even go through them all, every major city in America. You're speaking to these people, and so that's some serious advice you're handing out there. Well, one of the things on this Y2K thing, Art, and today is an interesting day to discuss it, is it should clarify as we get closer. There are going to be a couple of rollover dates this month, a big rollover date in August. I can't believe that we're just going to slam into the millennial date with half of the population thinking it's the end of the world and half assuring us it's no big deal. Is it not going to become more clear? I guess it is, but in the end, your advice is, in other words, you think there are going to be problems in cities and how long do you think that threat of civilization would last? A day, half a day, a day, two days? They did a very... 72 hours in most places. 72 hours. And then, of course, what the concern is, I suppose, is that the grid will fail in areas where there's bad weather and deep snow and that it will be very hard to get it back up and going. I am not an electrical engineer. I don't think anybody who isn't can make an informed judgment on that. Yeah, I can't. And, you know, I'm accused of being gloom and doom about all of this, but I do see what would occur. I think at least I know, frankly, what would occur if we lost our power. There's a movie called "The Trigger Effect." Did you ever get to see that? Probably not. I didn't. It really shows how quickly civilization would deteriorate if the power went off and people began to conclude it wasn't going to come on anytime soon and people reverted to early animal states rather quickly, a matter of days, as you just said. Well, all these disaster scenarios raise the opportunity for people to imagine that civilization will just slide out from under us. I went through a flood in Northern California years ago where the power was off for six and a half days and it did... Call us toll free at 1-800-618-8255. Oh, my. Here we go again, folks. This is not going to be an easy night. I can see that. I have no idea what they're doing out there, no idea whatsoever, but I guess all I can do is roll with the punches. One good thing, we will get all of the commercials caught up as I continually go back and retrieve Terrence. 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Once again, Terrence McKenna, we'll just have to keep getting him back as the power glitches. And it's not -- we can handle it either way, but what we're getting, Terrence, are these short little boom type breaks. And when that happens, my phone system goes goodbye everybody. It's absolutely amazing. Even I'm getting a good lesson tonight. I'm getting a really good lesson tonight. Anyway, Y2K. So you think as I do that you simply aren't going to predict what will happen but are pretty sure what will happen socially if it does happen. Well, and you know, here in Hawaii, we're at the end of the time for the day. So it will have happened in 22 time zones before it gets here. So we'll have a notion of it if it's rolling toward us. I guess that's right. So will you -- what do you plan to do, by the way, on New Year's Eve? Well, go to a party, of course. Really? Go to a party, really? Well, fortunately, the party is only about three miles away. I can -- I can fight my way back here in the confusion afterwards. Did you know, Terrence, the Communist Chinese government has ordered all of the management personnel of all of the airlines to be in the air in a Chinese aircraft flying the 31st into the 1st? Why? Why, you say? Yes. Well, I think twofold. One, to give the people of China confidence that their airplanes will be safe. And two, if they're not safe, then there won't be any concern about the management personnel who were on the flights. They'll have a whole new regime. But that is true. Hold on. Old socialist ways linger on. That's right. Stay right there. We'll be right back. I think Terrence McKenna is here, and this is Coast to Coast AM on and off. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] 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[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] It is, to say the least, interesting timing for this, is it not? 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It's guaranteed to work or your money back. And by the way, you can't get it in store. Call 1-800-472-5151. That's 1-800-472-5151. Buy two and get one free. Good Lord, this is... At least we're getting through our commercial load here rather quickly. But this is astounding. This has been the wildest night of power outages that we've had. Let me think now. Since the Western power outage, the entire Western third of the US, Canada and Mexico went out, this is the worst night and maybe even a little worse in some respects because it has been extremely unstable. I wonder what's going on. Terrence, did you get the question before we blip out? Yes, the question was why are the psychedelics so beneficial to some people and so shattering to other people? That's correct, yes. And the simple answer is there's a lot to be said for going back and looking at the concept that Leary and his colleagues put forth in the 60s of set and setting. Setting is, you know, you take these things, you don't do it in a noisy nightclub, you do it in a place that's secure, comfortable, familiar. And then the set, your mindset, you do it calmly, you aren't hysterical, you aren't emotionally wrought up, you aren't drunk. And if people will follow these simple rules, which are basically rules of reasonable behavior and respect for the substance, most people do fine. So your answer is the people that have gone the wrong way have had the wrong attitude. Is that what it boils down to, right? With the wrong people in the wrong places at the wrong time, that doesn't cover 100% of all unpleasant experiences. I mean, some people are on prescription drugs that tangle with these things unpleasantly. And some people, you know, if psychedelics dissolve boundaries, there's probably 2 or 3% of the population that is involved in trying to maintain boundaries, and those people should stay away from psychedelics. They have a different agenda. All right, let's grab one before the top of the hour. East of the Rockies, you're on air with Terrence McKenna and Art Bell. Good morning to you. Hello. Hello. I'd like to first off make a statement about the Y2K bug. Sure. I have a very good friend who back in the 80s, he claims that he actually helped code it. Code the Y2K bug? Yes. Well, that might just mean he was a programmer doing what they all did. It's going to be bad, according to him. Well, yes. You're trying to suggest that he was part of some sort of conspiratorial effort to make sure the Y2K bug hit hard? No, it's not conspiratorial as far as I know, but from what he tells me is that it is out there and that he did help write the code for it. A lot of people did that. All right, anything else, sir? Yes, first I'd like to -- my first question is about the element that you mentioned earlier, element 92. Yes. Where would I find more information about that? At your local library. They'll even teach you how to arrange it so that you can cause a massive explosion with that element. You'd just have to do a little reading. All right. All right. My next question would be for Terrence. What is the drug that he's used that has given him the most powerful experience? That's a good question. Terrence? Well, powerful, I don't know. In terms of life changing, I mean, certainly psilocybin at one point changed my life, LSD at another point, DMT all along the way. It seems to be this small family of tryptamines and then of course LSD isn't a tryptamine, but at high doses, all of these things have had life changing impact on me and the people that I'm aware of. John, I have you on there. I have to quickly ask this question. Where, Terrence, are Timothy's 25,000 hits? Where are they buried? Well, didn't I tell you last time? Do you have a little map with an X on it or something? They're somewhere out there in the desert east of Tonopah. South of Truth or Consequences. All right, stay right there. Terrence McKenna, as we can get him. This is one strange night, folks. I'm telling you, I have never, ever seen this many power bumps and failures in one night of broadcast in my entire life. Really weird stuff going on. Kind of synchronistic timing, wouldn't you say? This is Coast to Coast AM. And I know you're there When I'm crying And I know you're there When I'm crying Tonight, you are here Tonight, you are here There are reasons that I'm lonely But I have some love in me There are fires that ignite There's a cloud of bright energy You are the one Tonight, you are here You are the one Tonight, you are here In the velvet of the darkness I'm the sea that's the time I'm living in They are watching and fade away Fade away, they feel like they do And I know you're there When I'm crying And I know you're there When I'm crying I'm sitting cold and lonely Watching every motion in my foolish love I'm the sailing boat to find another shore Running out of time and you won't be the safest to hide Watching him float on and I just turn around and say Take my hand away Take my hand away Watching like he's waiting He's the last step to break the love Watching every motion in my foolish love I'm the sailing boat to find another shore Running out of time and you won't be the safest to hide Watching him float on and I just turn around and say Take my hand away To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nine, from east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033. West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255. First time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222. And you may call Art on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295. To reach Art from outside the U.S., first dial your access number to the USA, then 800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM, from the Kingdom of Nine, with Art Bell. It is indeed for the time we are here. Terrence is hanging in there with us. We're experiencing all night long now an outage that lasted about 45 minutes, sporadic bumps and surges that have been almost non-stop. And I hope my surge suppressors can handle the work. It's been pretty rough, let me tell you. The timing is at least odd. So, Terrence McKenna will be right back. Now again, the interesting thing with the power surges that I'm experiencing, is that my phone system is on an uninterruptible power supply. So as you may have noted, you can actually hear it when it occurs. You'll hear a little bleeping sound. And the phones, nevertheless, are disconnecting all of you, so I apologize, including, of course, my guests. And the reason that apparently is occurring is because I guess the phone company also is dependent to some degree on the electricity. It may be that when, you know, where I am at least, when there's a problem, it just instantaneously glitches the phone lines and I lose everybody here. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. Terrence, welcome back. Yes, I'm glad we're still hanging on. Here's somebody hanging on in Smith County, Tennessee. And he, too, had a power failure, went out for about five minutes two hours ago. No storms, no winds. So kind of strange. First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna and Art Bell. Hi there. Art, good to talk to you. Long time listener. Yes, sir. Where are you? I'm in Smith County, Tennessee. You are? Yeah, that was me. Oh, you had a power failure. Yeah, yeah. It just, I wasn't paying much attention to it and it just, I heard you talking about it and it caught me in my tracks. I turned around and turned up the radio. I was fixing to go to bed and I didn't really think anything of it, but it's on. It's on. I appreciate your call, sir. Thank you. Wildcard line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna and Art Bell. Hi. Oh, hi. This is Richard from Las Vegas. Yes, Richard. I had a question for your guest. Does he think that due to the fact that the government is losing control of information through the Internet and the cable news and everything, that it's going to try to become more repressive in other ways, like in the drug enforcement and things like that? Well, the question is, the government is indeed to some degree losing control because of the Internet. Things are happening the government, I'm sure, is not pleased with. So that's a pretty good question in itself. They created the Internet. Is the monster that they created now biting them in the butt or what? Terrence? God, we lost Terrence again. Wow. I'm still here. How's Las Vegas? I haven't lost power yet. You haven't lost power yet. Have you seen it blinking or surging? No. In fact, I've been surfing the net listening to you, and I haven't had any problems, except when your phone lines go down, your website goes crazy, too. It does. Yes. All right, sir. I appreciate the call. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. I'm going to have to try and get Terrence back. I have no idea why we lost Terrence this time, because this time we didn't have a power failure. Every other time we have. Let me see if we can get him back here. It's just absolutely astounding. I'll actually dial him right now. I've got a break to dial him. Let's see. I'll even let you hear it ring. Here we go. Watch this. Hi, Ark. Maybe we should pack it in. What do you think? Hold on a sec. Tell you what, the next time it occurs, we'll pack it in. Okay. I'm game. This time, the power didn't fail. You just went away. On this end, it sounded just like all the others. Now we appear to have not such a hot phone connection either. Do you hear that? It's the same for me. Do you want to call back and try again? Let's bear with it for a few minutes and see how it does. Boy, Y2K, here we go. Yeah. If this is general, I mean, it's 2.30 in the morning where you are. The load on the system is very low. It shouldn't be happening now. That's exactly right. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna, I hope. Good morning. Good morning. Where are you? This is Mike from Cleveland. Yes, sir. I just called to tell you that this morning around 3 o'clock in our time, we had a couple of flashes and about five, our power went out. And they gave us this, I don't know, it sounds kind of screwy to me. They were saying because we had a light rain shower and hadn't used, there was salt. And the salt had caused some 50 telephone poles to catch on, I mean, electric poles to catch on fire. So that's what they told you? 65,000 people out of power. 65,000 for two hours? Yes. Longer than that in some cases. Well, this is beginning to seem to be a pattern to me. That's what I was thinking. That's why I wanted to get on the phone and call you. Well, welcome to the new millennium early. Yeah, I appreciate the call, sir. Thank you. West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna and Art Bell. Hi. Hey, guys. This is Eric from Los Angeles. Yes, sir. I'd like to -- I really like your show, Art. Thank you. I do a lot for everything. I was just wondering, are you guys going to go see the new movie Matrix? The premise of the movie is a combined nanotechnology biological hallucination that everyone has more control over their illusion. It should be interesting. But my question is for Terrence. Terrence, through all your interdimensional traveling, do you have any concept of what the afterlife for you would be? No. We've discussed this here in the last 24 hours, and I was shown to be inadequate. I have noticed in virtual reality that sometimes the landscape builds out ahead of you. If you have good processors, then you can actually watch the landscape springing into existence. I can sort of imagine the end of life is like that process in reverse. Just more and more is subtracted. My ketamine experiences have convinced me that a consciousness without a body is an entertainable idea. Consciousness without a body is simply like the volume of your mind turned up until it's all there is. Then I can imagine just unfolding into thought without a spatial locus. But does that go on forever? That's a little hard to feature. Of course, nothing that we know of goes on forever. So to imagine that when you find out what lies beyond death, you've found out what eternity is, maybe. Maybe that's why we come back. Maybe that's why we maybe reincarnate. Do you believe in reincarnation? Well, if reincarnation occurs, it's a way of getting away from this paradox of eternally existing as a conscious form in some other dimension. One more question. Has the other side ever communicated to you through lights? Or have you ever seen the all-seeing eye, like from the Egyptian times? I think that these entities communicate with sound and light. It's sound which you can see. They seem to have some kind of a language which has more dimensions than acoustical language. It's not telepathy, but it's something that is sculptural. You experience it as a visual medium. A mosaic. And it's high bandwidth, yes. That's incredible. We could be on the brink of engineering something like that as a human mode of communication, if we could unleash psychopharmacology and really understand what's going on. We live really in incredible times. Do you think all these prophecies and all these things that have been placed from the past are ways for us to actually be moving into this new dimension, this new paradigm? Well, we're at the end of a thousand-year period, and we're at the climax of the agenda of modern science. We're moving off the planet, and we're going digital. There are so many transformative tendencies in play that I think you would have to really be resisting the tide to see that we're ready to make some kind of leap. That's incredible. I really see that this paradigm of thought is overtaking the old paradigm, and the old paradigm needs to firmly hold control. I just think we just keep what we're doing. Keep doing what Art showed. Everything's going to be all right. Everything's going to be all right. And that's not through rose-colored glasses either, Art. All right. I appreciate the call, sir. Thank you. Okay, bye. Take care. This is a question by email. Somebody wants to know, and I really am not sure myself, wants to ask you your opinion on Tim Leary's work with prisoners and the reasons his findings were suppressed. What do you know about that? I don't know a whole lot about that. I assume this refers to Vacaville. What I do know is that there was a whole wing of Vacaville in the '60s that was basically a CIA laboratory for experimenting on controlling and programming people with drugs. What Tim Leary had to do with it, I'm not a historian of his life. I couldn't say. I do think that Sirhan Sirhan passed through that facility. So did Charlie Manson, so did General Sin Q, the character who led the Symbionese Liberation Army. Remember them? Oh, yes. And so it's well-documented that there was CIA interest in all these things. Recently, you probably noticed Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, who ran that MKUltra program. He died recently. I heard that, yes. Yes, he took a lot of secrets with him, I'm sure. What would you imagine would occur to somebody given LSD? Totally unsuspecting given LSD. Well, it depends on, again, the circumstances. If you were out in public, I think most people would lead to the conclusion first that they had been poisoned and then a few minutes later that they were losing their mind. I think it's one of the most fundamental violations of a person's dignity to give them a drug without discussing it with them and them being fully consensual. Why do I agree? There is no more fundamental invasion of privacy than such. William Burroughs once said there was only one commandment, and it was "Thou shalt not blow pot smoke in thy pet's face." I'm going to remember that one, Terrence. First Time Caller line, you're on the air with Art Bell and Terrence McKinney. Hello. Hello to you. Yes, sir. Where are you? I am in Silicon Valley. Yes, just here doing the computer thing. What I would like to ask is a few of us are going to take a trip down to Mexico and we're going to be doing the Mayan thing down there. I was wondering if I can get any direction on which way to go. Simple as that. Well, the Mayan ruin of Palenque in the state of Chiapas overlaps Mushroom Territory. It's a little late, but there still may be mushrooms there this time of year. That's a beautiful ruin. Uxmal in the Yucatan is a beautiful ruin. If you get down to Belize, Chinon Tenech out in the west end of the country, those are my favorite ones, and Tikal in Guatemala. But Palenque in Chiapas is the gem of the Mayan archaeological site. Way down south. Can you go that far down south, Caller? Yes, we just got back from the Andes and that's what we do is hike in the mountains. The Sierra Mazateca behind Palenque is some of the most rugged country in Mexico with some of the world's deepest caves. But of course, there are political problems back in there. The Mexican army is leaning on the Indians pretty heavily, so you want to know your turf. Did you find any problems down there when you were there in January? Not at the ruin, but in the mountains which begin immediately behind the ruin, all bets are off. I got you. I just want to also thank you very much for the electronic music culture that's going on, for the work that you've done, and I guess the spoken word that you've done with them. I want to thank you very much for that. Oh, thanks very much. Yeah, you are definitely in our consciousness around here in the Silicon Valley. Yeah, thank you, and thank you for the Santa Cruz visit also. Thanks for calling. Okay, bye-bye. Take care. Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna and Art Bell. Yes, sir. Hi. Hi. I'm a first-time caller. Where are you? I'm in California. Okay. Los Angeles, and I'm listening to KABC. The Mighty Flagship Station, yes, sir, in LA. Yes, 790. The reason I was calling was -- one reason was actually my brother did split me some acid when I was 11 years old and have that experience I can share. Oh, my God. Four-way window pain, and I was never a heavy drug user during my life, but that was a real radical experience. Other than that, nobody seems to want to talk about how much resources they recently found in Kosovo. Someone called me today because I know a lot of people in the government as well as private, and I'm in international business. They found trillions of dollars worth of resources in Kosovo. That may well be. What happened to you on this uninvited acid trip? Well, what happened was my brother was into some sort of satanic rituals with his buddies, and they thought it would be a great joke to go ahead and split me four-way window pain. And I remember getting really violently ill initially because I didn't know what was going on. I was spinning. I laid down, and I laid down in a water bed, and the vacuum started running on itself and it started vacuuming the room methodically, you know? So I realized I was--I knew at that point that obviously my brother and his friends had obviously done something to me, you know? What they had done I don't know. They didn't tell me at that time. Then I started changing colors, okay, like blue, green. I was really--then I started going into what they would say kind of like a bad trip, and I was still basically barely able to keep sense of reality, you could say, you know, because that's a pretty serious dose at that kind of age. It's a terribly serious dose. Yeah. And I guess in youth, thank you, you would handle such thing better. But I would imagine, Terrence, not only would somebody who had that done to them feel like they were losing their mind, but probably could actually slip out of reality and stay out of reality under such conditions. That would be one possibility, wouldn't it? Well, the fear thing starts a cascade, and then people do desperate or foolish things. And yeah, no, it's a really dumb thing. Well, this caller comes from a typical dysfunctional American family, satanic rituals, siblings dosing others with LSD. This is why we need drug education. We are a dysfunctional nation, aren't we? All right, hold tight. Maybe the power will stick with us, Terrence. This is Coast to Coast AM. It's a blue moon, too. It's a bad one. Here's some e-mails, surges, power surges, serious ones in Oklahoma about two hours ago. About the right time. Don't go around tonight, but you finally take your time. There's a bad moon on the rise. I hear hurricanes a-flowing. I know the end is coming soon. I feel rivers overflowing. I hear the voice of righteous ruins. Don't go around tonight, but you finally take your time. There's a bad moon on the rise. Don't go around. Hope you got your things together. Hope you have quite the appetite. Looks like we're in for master weather. One eye is peeking before an eye. Don't go around tonight, but you finally take your time. There's a bad moon on the rise. Don't go around tonight, but you finally take your time. There's a bad moon on the rise. And it's all right, and it's coming home. We gotta get right back where we started from. Love you, son. Love you, because we gotta get right back where we started from. To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from outside the U.S., first, dial your access number to the USA. Then, 800-893-0903. If you're a first-time caller, call Art at 702-727-1222. From east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033. West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, call Art at 1-800-618-8255. Or call Art on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295. This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye. Good morning, everybody. Terrence McKenna is here. And the power for the moment seems to be stable. And I really shouldn't say that, because obviously it'll bring on the worst. But we'll take it as it comes. Terrence will be right back. All right. Once again, here we go. I'm telling you, it's wild around here. This is as wild a night as we have had. That's all there is to it. It's a wild night. Here's somebody else. I must have 100 emails here. Felt the power surge in Provo, Utah. Enjoy the show. That's Provo, Utah. It's one of those nights. And it's going to be interesting to see if and what the press has to say about it later today. Of course, it occurred in the middle of the night, so they may not say a word. Terrence, welcome back. Good to be back. You are there. I am. I am. All right. Here we go, hopefully. First time caller line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna and Art Bell on a weird night, but fun. Hello. Hi. This is Frank from Cotati, California. It's Sonoma County. Hi, Frank. I read in Timothy Leary's autobiography Flashbacks about some experiments they had done at some prisons back east, I think when he was still at Harvard, using psilocybin to rehabilitate inmates. And the thing about it was they had a far lower recidivism rate, and that just basically got covered up and ignored, and then they got bounced out of Harvard, so it just kind of disappeared. But I thought that was one thing that was pretty interesting. And I want to put in a plug for a book by Dale Pendell. The name of it is Pharmacopoieta, and it's an excellent explication of all the varieties of mind-altering substances. I think it might be an interesting guest for you. Is that something you're familiar with, Terrence? Yes. Pharmacopoieta, Dale Pendell, he's an interesting character, and he can spin a line of rap. He would be an interesting guest. That's an excellent book. All right. Well, Terrence, maybe you ought to just sort of construct a list of interesting guests and how to get hold of them and email it to me or something. Sure, I'm happy to do that. I would love that, because it sounds like you've got a lot of very interesting suggestions. Now, here's an email from Boulder City, right outside of Las Vegas, and he says, "I live just outside of Boulder City, and I'm looking across Boulder City right now, and all the lights are out." Now, that's where Boulder Dam is, so that's kind of interesting, too. Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna. Hi. Great. I made it. This is John in Las Vegas, 105.1. Hi, John. How are you doing? Hi. I talked to you guys last year on March 19th. I called and related the experience about the dream and the geometry book, and I wrote a short story about it called "Time Square." I sent it out on March 13th, Saturday. I sent you a copy, Art. Yes, sir. Did you get it? I got it. Oh, okay. All right. Terrence, if you would care to receive a copy, I'd love to send you one. All right, yeah. Go to my website at levity.com, and my email button is right there on the Terrence McKenna page. Well, I'm not really wired, or I don't have a computer. Go to a library. Right, but this involves 11 pages with color scans and stuff. I don't know if I can send that out that way. Well, actually, if you go to that website, my PO box is there, too. Oh, great. Okay. All right. I'm not computer literate. All right. Well, listen, I'll tell you what. We'll even do you another favor. Why don't you give out your PO box, Terrence? Sure. It's POB 677, and the name of the town is H-O-N-A-U-N-A-U, Hawaii, 96726. So that's H-O-N-A-U-N-A-U, Hawaii, 96726, and I'm POB 677. Post Office Box 677. Spell that town one more time. H-O-N-A-U-N-A-U. N-A-U. That's a weird name. And you pronounce that? H-O-N-A-N-O. It must have taken a while after you moved there to get that down. Oh, well. Or did you name the town? I mean, is it -- No, no. It's a lifetime struggle for the poor howly to be able to pronounce Hawaiian even closely to correct. Yes. Ease to the Rockies. You're on there with Terrence McKenna and Art Bell. Morning. Good morning, Terrence, and good morning, Art. Yes, sir. I went through Vacaville and another state mental institution in California. They have used those mental institutions not only for programming, but to destroy any political prisoner that they deem a threat to "society." And when were you in Vacaville? I was in from '91 until '94. So that was well after all these things that were charged about the '60s. But I'm sure, you know, all this work goes on. I mean, as Art said, these black budget agencies wouldn't be fulfilling the taxpayer's mandate if they weren't pursuing all these horrifying technologies and possibilities. This is always the argument. Yes. They continually do their little tricks of the trade. I was very aware of it due to some connections that I had prior to going in, and that's one of the reasons that I was in. And they, in fact, held me six and a half years illegally without due process of law. Silence. Are you there? Well, I'm just wondering how much of this goes on that we don't hear about, you know? I mean, we have a tendency, you and I mentioned it earlier, to expose the sins of 25 years ago, but what's going on tonight? You know what, Terrence? I wish that I believed that we had had some great transformation, that we are now this moral, ethical government that we thought we had years ago and now have found out, of course, we didn't have. But I don't think anything's changed. I think the players have changed, and I think 25 or 30 years or 50 years from now, we'll find out all the crap we're doing now. I'm sure that's true. I mean, I think it's a very cynical game. Anybody who thinks we emerged into the light with Watergate or something like that just has bought a very obvious establishment line. Here, here, here. West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna. Hello. Hello. Hi. Is that me? That's you? Oh, hi. Hi. Where are you? I'm in beautiful Vancouver, B.C. Vancouver. All right. Yes. Oh, wow. I can't believe I'm on here. Gee, well, it's really a treat to hear you're on the air again there, Terrence. Anyway, one of the things I wanted to ask you is about specifically DMT, and I've read most of your books, and they're amazing. The possible connection, has there been any more, have you looked into or has there been any more research into the possible connection of the tryptamines being a connection to what was known as Soma or what we know as Soma from ancient writing or delusion mysteries? It continues. I mean, there's endless discussion about what was this fantastic hallucinogen that inspired the writing of the Vedas. Let's see, in the recent issue of Eleusis, Jonathan Ott reviews all theories, including my own, and finds mine inadequate and everybody else's as well. I think it's pretty clear it was psilocybin. Some people want to say it was Amanita muscaria, but Amanita muscaria is an unreliable and sometimes dangerous intoxicant. If it was neither a psilocybin mushroom nor Amanita muscaria, then the candidates are not very promising. So this is an area that needs to be looked at. It was all regarded as settled and that Watson had figured it out, but now we know that there was a lot of evidence that's come to light since he did his work that pushes the argument in new directions. I talk about this in Food of the Gods. There are two chapters related to Soma. I was asking if there was anything new that has come to light since then. Well, Giorgio Sammarini, who studies the Iboga cults in Gabon, told me that in the inner mysteries of these Iboga cults, there is mushroom symbolism and the use of the colors red and white. So that's evidence of a possible mushroom cult connected with hallucinogenic substances in Africa. That was a previously missing piece of the puzzle. But no, I wouldn't say this argument has advanced dramatically. I think until Algeria is politically stable enough to permit archaeology in the southern Sahara, the early human use of hallucinogens in Africa and the Middle East is going to remain unclear. Thank you for the call, sir. First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna. Hey Art, how are you doing? This is Jim over the hump from you in Vegas. Yes, Jim. I kind of tuned in late tonight, but I've understood that there's been a lot of squirrelly things going on with power and computers tonight. I'd just like to relate what went on in my world tonight. What was that? I work at a major hotel here with production shows. All the intelligent lighting was just unbelievably whacked out tonight and everybody was just throwing up their hands, couldn't figure it out. During the big wind we had, did you get wind out there yesterday? Oh, did we get wind. Yeah, I kind of figured. Was it like a hurricane? Well, we were experiencing power surges then and fluctuations and the whole idea was shut it off. So everything was shut down. So that's what's kind of really weird about it. It's either possibly the power beforehand, but these lighting boards and controllers, which is all high-tech computer-controlled stuff. Everything was just unbelievably out tonight. Held up, huh? Hey, another thing. I just wanted to plug one of your sponsors there. I'm talking to you on that Sanyo 917 right now. You see, folks, all the bad phones you hear, and until he just told you he was on a portable phone, you would not have known it. I can sit in my neighbor's kitchen. I hear you. And actually, I don't have that external antenna or nothing, but I can get about a quarter of a mile away. I know. But, hey. Listen, I appreciate it, sir. I got to scoot, but thank you. And there is no better advertisement than proof here on the air. Anyway, onward. Let's see. Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna. Good morning. Hi. My name is Michael, and I'm in California. Hi, Michael. Terrence, 30 years ago this month, I was sitting in a coffee shack in Hohnaunau making a wine club, getting ready to go to my draft physical. So you know Hohnaunau. I do. Well, it hasn't changed that much. It's a well-kept secret. With a spelling like that, we figure we're off the map. I love Captain Cook, the whole area. Something additional to the DMT lore, I was thought of Sleeping Beauty, just a frog, turned him into a prince. Right. Well, you know the Toad DMT source, right? Well, yeah. This is something we haven't mentioned, maybe, on the air. I thought maybe you said there's not too many toads left. Well, we don't want to deplete the toads, but there are near relatives of DMT in some toads. Let's just put it like that. I thought of turning the frog into the prince. It might have something to do with that. That's right. Okay. Good evening. Thank you. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna. Art Bell, good morning. Where are you? I'm in Wisconsin. Wisconsin. Yep. Now, here's an example of a bad portable phone. Yep. Some of us don't have a lot of money to buy. All right. Yell into your bad phone and ask your question. Some of us don't have a lot of money to buy good... I hear that. Anyway, I've been growing psychoactive fungus and plants for a number of years now. I've recently been trying to find plants which contain DMT. I used the plant mimosa and I grew that. It contained the substance, but not in high enough quantities. I was wondering if Terrence could recommend any obtainable plant sources for the source of DMT. Okay. Well, Psychotria viridis is the preferred source of DMT in the Amazon. I know it's hard to get and hard to grow. The mimosa hostilis and the Mexican conspecific species, the name of which escapes me because it's so late at night, those two in the root bark are pretty competitive. There's also anadinanthra peregrina variety sibyl. The seeds of that also contain a fair concentration, in fact, a high concentration. Acacia confusa is an eastern, meaning an oriental acacia that has a lot of DMT in it. But Psychotria viridis, if you can get it. All right. Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna in the waning moments. Hi. From Vancouver again. Yes, sir. Going back to the Mayans... Sir, you were on earlier? No, in relation to that subject and the coming about of the 2013, do you see, Terrence, the realization of galactic citizenship as a precursor or a result of that time? Well, I can fly with that. In other words, technologies seem to be converging toward opening up the bell, non-local quantum realm where presumably all the intelligences of the universe are communicating in some kind of standing wave form. So I don't know how it is that it's keyed to this conjunction with the galactic center, but I do think that we will fulfill the dreams of the ancient Maya. We will fulfill the dreams of the medieval alchemists. We are on a collision course with some kind of revelation of our own place in the cosmos. And exactly how it's all going to hang out, we can't say. But that it is happening is visibly evident all around us. How close do you think we are? Well, I still feel comfortable with 2012. I still think that gives us ample room to put in place the understandings, the technologies. I think we have to get over the millennial speed bump. I think a lot of the world has seized the high ground and we have to sort through the prophecies and the revelations one by one. But the wiser voices will be discerned in this process. This is something you contribute to, Art, by letting everybody tell their story and letting the Darwinian selection of these memes take place. Indeed, indeed, I do that. All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna. Hello. Is that me? That's you. I had a question. I wanted to tell you something, Art. Yes? Did you know you're going to be on repeat of Millennium tonight? Oh, you know, I meant to tell my audience that. Thank you. That's right. The Millennium program I did is going to, indeed, repeat tonight on NBC at what, 8 o'clock or something? I think it's 9. 9 o'clock? Yeah. Okay. On the West Coast. On the West Coast. So wherever you are, that's right, I'll be on Millennium. Thank you. And I have a question. Sure. And what about people that take prescribed Medicaid drugs and they don't get the right one? Is that anything like that, like you're talking about? No. You mean in terms of the kinds of effects? Yeah. No, I think we're talking about something, well, bad medication can go any direction, but psychedelics are certainly more than simply mis-prescribed responses to drugs. Well, do you think-- Is that what you mean? Well, I think that's what you mean. Do you think that drugs ought to be prescribed at all? And if you do, then should psychedelics be prescribed? Well, see, we don't have any place in our culture or our medical practice for the concept of self-administered recreational drugs. Our culture sets us up to think drugs are for sick people. No, no, I know, but I mean in some greater future that we might sit here and imagine for a moment. Well, I think we're going to see psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, and in fact that already flourishes in an underground form, sure. So that you could see it go that direction. In other words, there would be legitimate use, legitimate prescription. You would go to the doctor and you would say, "I'm depressed. I'm in an unrecoverable state of depression or something," or "I'm whatever," and they would prescribe something that would literally alter your perception. Well, the cure rate of chronic alcoholism with one trip of LSD in the early '60s was 50%. Really? Really? One trip, yes, at the Saskatoon Mental Hospital in Saskatchewan. All this was published. Now, but where, and why don't we read about it now? Well, because once LSD was demonized, the idea that it might cure addiction to the drug of choice of the culture just contained too many contradictions for the scientific and medical establishment to want to plow ahead with it. Terrence, we're out of time as always. Listen, thanks on a really rough night for hanging in with me through all the bumps in this road. It was whitewater training, Art. Ha ha. We'll do it again, of course, one day. Thank you, Terrence. All right, good night. Good night, from the desert to paradise. That's it, folks. That's all the time we've got tonight. We really have a wonderful lineup of guests coming up, and you can see them on my website right now, assuming the power holds. That's www.artbell.com. And yes, I will be on Millennium tonight, from the high desert, night all. (music) [BLANK_AUDIO] {END} Wait Time : 0.00 sec Model Load: 0.79 sec Decoding : 8.42 sec Transcribe: 11813.31 sec Total Time: 11822.52 sec